Debbie Greenberg
In the late ‘50s and early 1960’s, England was in the process of recovering and rebuilding from World War II. The first post war generation of teenagers began looking for relief of the dreary surroundings in the industrial city of Liverpool. One of the ways was to participate in the arts. Some went to art school and others began to play musical instruments. Jazz had been the dominant popular style of music for years and the bands led by Chris Barber and Ken Colyer were thriving. Skiffle moved in after Lonnie Donogan scored a big hit with Rock Island Line. The kids were also becoming aware of Rock and Roll from America.
John Lennon and Paul McCartney discovered they had a love of music and began to play it together. After starting out as a skiffle group called The Quarrymen, they tweaked the lineup and changed the name to The Beatles. There were other groups forming all throughout Liverpool as well. Club owners in the city began showcasing these groups. The Cavern Club hired the Beatles in early 1961 and they made a huge impact on the local teenagers. Everyone knew that they were something special. Their popularity was exploding and the fab four would wind up appearing at the Cavern 292 times. The rest is Rock and Roll history.
The Cavern Club played host to many classic artists and groups though the years such as: Chuck Berry, The Rolling Stones, Queen, Slade, Black Sabbath, John Lee Hooker, Elton John, The Who, The Kinks and many others. The original venue was demolished in 1973 and has since had been rebuilt using 90% of the bricks from the original site. Paul McCartney had also performed in the new location in 1999. I recently spoke with Debbie Greenberg who witnessed the first Beatles performance at the Cavern and many others. She would eventually manage the club after her father purchased it in 1966. Debbie has recently released a book titled “Cavern Club – The Inside Story.”
R.V.B. – Hi Debbie… how are you today?
D.G. – Hello Robert… I’m fine thank you. I hope you are too.
R.V.B. – I’m fine. We have a very nice day here in New York. How is it by you?
D.G. – It’s beautiful… the sun is shining and the skies are blue.
R.V.B. – Congratulations on your new book. It’s something that every Beatles fan should have. It must have been an exciting time for you to be a part of the Liverpool scene?
D.G. – It was amazing. It was so magical and every day was brilliant.
R.V.B. - How old were you when you saw the Beatles for the first time?
D.G. – I was 15 and a half.
R.V.B. – You witnessed the very beginning of it.
D.G. – I certainly did.
R.V.B. – Can you describe the general atmosphere of the city? Was the excitement building momentum?
D.G. – It was gradual at that time… in 1960. I started to go to the Cavern in early December 1960. It was still a jazz club then. Alan Sytner opened it in 1957 and he was a jazz fanatic. He wanted it to stay as a jazz club. Gradually, skiffle moved in and then rock and roll infiltrated. It was something that the kids wanted. They pushed it that way. The actual city of Liverpool was yearning for something. They were the first teens after the war, and they wanted something new. Rock and roll was starting to infiltrate in patches, in Liverpool. There were quite a lot of clubs scattered around but the Cavern was special. It had an atmosphere that none of the other clubs had. It was very, very special.
R.V.B. – it was an underground club that was shaped like a dome correct?
D.G. – It was in an old warehouse. If you walked down Matthew Street you had towering buildings on either side. They were about five or six stories high. The Cavern was in the basement of number 10. When you went down the steps of number 10, into the cavern proper, there were three arched tunnels. The central tunnel had the stage at the far end. The right tunnel had the paying desk and the coat room at the far end. The left tunnel had the band room where the groups used to enter the stage.
R.V.B. – I guess the Beatles created a line down the street when they played there?
D.G. – Absolutely!!! Right down the street and into the next street… and sometimes into the one after that. It was crazy, crazy times. The Beatles first played the Cavern on the 9th of February in 1961. I was there for the debut. It was a lunchtime session. I went with a bunch of friends and we were just blown away by them. They were different to all the other groups in Liverpool. There were a lot of groups in Liverpool but they just had the edge on them somehow.
R.V.B. – They were starting to really come together at that time.
D.G. – They had their first trip to Hamburg. That made them into professionals. The first gig they had when they returned to Liverpool was at Litherland Town Hall. It was December 27th, 1960. Their next gig was at the Cavern where we saw them.
R.V.B. – You were aware of the momentum that was building?
D.G. – There was talk all around Liverpool. A lot of the groups went over to Hamburg at that time. We’d heard through the grapevine that the Beatles were coming to Liverpool again. They hadn’t been there as the Beatles before. They were there as the Quarrymen… a skiffle group. The rumors were coming that the Beatles were coming “You’ve got to go.”
R.V.B. – Did you see any other groups at that time?
D.G. – Oh yes… I saw a lot of groups… Gerry and the Pacemakers, The Big Three, Rory Storm and the Hurricanes… which of course is where Ringo came from. There were lots of good groups in Liverpool.
R.V.B. – Word on the street was that Ringo was one of the best drummers in town.
D.G. – That’s what everybody was saying. As kids watching, we didn’t realize that. We just wanted to know why Pete Best was replaced. We couldn’t see any difference in the drumming. The experts knew better than we did.
R.V.B. – Was Pete Best a handsome guy?
D.G. – Oh he was… he was fearfully good looking.
R.V.B. – Do you think the Beatles were a little jealous about that?
D.G. – Could be. There was a rumor that went around that Paul was jealous of him. Even today, Pete Best doesn’t know why he was removed.
R.V.B. – So you went from a patron of the club to management. How did that transition work?
D.G. – I visited the club for about four or five years before my father bought it. He came to me one day and said “I got a chance to buy the Cavern… what do you think?” It was just a ridiculous question. (Haha) I was fanatical about the Cavern and the Beatles. His friend Joe Davey, used to own Joe’s Café on Duke Street… where the groups would congregate there after their gigs. They were open until 4AM in the morning and they used to have a meal there. My dad and Joe Davey were lifelong friends. Joe Davey had approached my father and said “I’ve been offered the chance to buy The Cavern. Would you come in with me?” He couldn’t afford to pay for the place on his own. He needed somebody that he knew and that he could trust. When he asked me what do I think? I said “I think you should take it. Not just because I’m fanatical about it but I’ve seen it at its peak and I know it can happen again.” My father taught me to have a business head and I also understood that he would have to put his life savings into this venue.
R.V.B. – When he did get the lease, did you start working there right away?
D.G. – No I didn’t. My mother went in and handled all the finances. We had a chain of butcher shops at the time. I offered to run the place for him because I went straight from school into the butcher shop. I trained as a master butcher with him. I used to go and buy the meat with him. So I knew exactly what to do. I knew I could handle it. I ran the shops for about a year, until we could wind it down. We bought The Cavern in 1966. I joined him at The Cavern in 1967 as my mother stepped back.
R.V.B. – Who was responsible for hiring the musical acts?
D.G. – Bob Wooler did all of that. We took Bob Wooler back when we opened The Cavern. Paddy Delaney… the main doorman. Billy Butler was the resident DJ. We gave them all their positions back again. They knew the ropes. It made sense to keep them on. Bob Wooller did the hiring of the groups… then gradually, my father did so with him.
R.V.B. – What were some of the bands that played there during the time of your ownership?
D.G. – We had big bands… Slade, Queen. We had people from America… Ben E. King, Rufus Thomas, Edwin Starr, Chuck Berry, Lee Dorsey, Soloman Burke and Bruce Chanell.
R.V.B. – That’s quite a list.
D.G. – Yes… we brought in a lot of big stars when we owned the club.
R.V.B. – I guess it served as a tourist attraction as well.
D.G. – The Beatles made it that way, once they became famous. We used to leave the door of The Cavern open during the day and let the tourist’s stream in and have a look. They wanted to see where it all started.
R.V.B. – Then the unfortunate event happened and the club closed due to construction from the transit system.
D.G. – In September 1970, a friend of my dad’s Harry Waterman - who was a club owner and had quite a lot of clubs in Liverpool – approached my father and wanted to buy the club from him. My dad had taken a back seat from The Cavern by then. I had been running it for a couple of years. My dad had sidestepped into a taxi business. Harry had asked him “Would you think of selling The Cavern?” My dad hadn’t even considered selling The Cavern. He had sewed the seed. He said “Let me think on it.” He left it until about a month later and thought “It’s at its peak… it’s probably a good time to sell.” He started negotiations. Now in early November, the contracts were drawn up for signing. In mid-November we got a letter from British Rails… they owned the land that the Cavern stood on. British Rails wanted to put a bill before Parliament to take a compulsory order out to purchase the land. They were building a new Metro link under the city of Liverpool. They wanted to build a ventilation shaft of the site of The Cavern. About a week after that, we got another letter from British Rails solicitors saying if The Cavern owners wanted to pay a sum of 500 pounds, they would consider moving the site of the shaft further down Matthew Street… near Button Street. It was about 1000 yards further down the street. By this time the initial signatures had gone off on the contract. Dad rang Harry three times - while I was there – begging him to pay the money. He said “You’ve got to save The Cavern… it’s a shrine to the world.” My dad took the letter to his solicitor and insisted that they pay this money because they need to save this club. Harry Waterman had a partner called Roy Adams. When my dad pleaded with Harry to pay the money, Harry said “I’ll let Roy decide.” The fact that The Cavern was a global phenomenon, didn’t interest Harry at all. All he cared about was making money and it was just another club to him. He didn’t have the same feeling about it that we did.
The position was that the sale went ahead. Harry and Roy bought the club. It only had a year to run on the lease when they bought it. When Alan Sytner took The Cavern over in 1957, it was a 15 year lease. When we bought it in 66, there was six years left to run. When we sold it in late 1970, the lease was due to expire in January of 72. Roy moved The Cavern across the road to another building - opposite the Cavern - when the Cavern was demolished. I don’t know what their reasoning was? I know if we still owned it, we’d of paid the 500 pounds. We were distraught when we found out that it was being demolished. It happened in June of 73.
R.V.B. – I understand they saved some of the bricks from the original construction during the demolition, and used them to rebuild it?
D.G. – They did yes. A friend of ours Dave Backhouse, was the architect and he salvaged 90 odd percent of the bricks. When The Cavern was demolished – because it was underground – most of it was intact after the bulldozers cleared the site. He was able to get into that site and take measurements of The Cavern in its entirety. They made a replica on the new site of The cavern. It’s practically identical. It’s not quite the same height on the stage. Because I was there so often I knew every detail. It’s a very, very good replica.
R.V.B. – Is it near the original site?
D.G. – It’s not far away. It’s further up the street. When we bought The Cavern from the Liverpool Corporation, we had the lease from 8, 10 and 12 Mathew Street. It was a very large part of the street. It went almost from the top of the street to the Grapes Pub… all the way down. It was enormous. Liverpool Corporation had closed The Cavern in 1966, because there were no main drains. There was just a cesspit under the toilets. They closed it for health reasons. Ray McFall – who was the previous owner – had to pay 1500 pounds to replace the drains. He didn’t pay it and they went bankrupt. That’s when we stepped in. We moved the toilets and the entrance to number 8 Mathew Street… which was a bit further up. We had to put in a big new Staircase because there was no emergency exit there. If there had been a fire, there would have been absolute Bedlam. We had to adhere to all these regulations before we could reopen it. The actual entrance to the new Cavern now is where we opened number 8. It’s about 100 yards away from the original spot.
R.V.B. – What are some of your fondest memories of The Cavern Club?
D.G. – The two nights that stick out happen to be Beatles performances. One was when Grenada Television came to The Cavern on August 22nd 1962. They filmed it. It was just amazing. It was so hot in there… like a sauna. The perspiration used to drip off the walls. You had the smell of the toilets that was topped with disinfectants, to mask the smell. You’d also have the smell of the café in the back with the hot dogs and the soup. But this particular evening, you couldn’t move in The Cavern. It was supposed to hold about 600 people but there must have been at least 1,000 in there. We were like sardines. We couldn’t move. The atmosphere was absolutely electric. The lights from the cameras made it even hotter. That was very special.
The next thing that sticks out in my mind, was their last performance on the 3rd of August 1963, because they disappeared off the scene. We lived on Mackets Lane in Woolton, which is facing George Harrison's house. My mum and George Harrison’s mother were good friends. They used to walk down from the bus together and have a chat every so often. The Beatles had been to George’s house that day. I had seen them rolling up in George’s dark green Jaguar… jumping out of the car and going into the house. I said to my mother “The Beatles are at George’s… why don’t you pop over and ask Louise if you can have some photographs signed?” So she went over for me and Louise got four photographs signed for me. I sent them to friends of mine all over the globe. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn’t it. After their visits at George Harrison’s mother’s house, they jumped into the car with their brown suede waistcoats on and pink shirts… this was about four or five in the afternoon. I made sure I got down to the Cavern at about five o’clock. The performance didn’t start until seven, so we cued for a couple of hours. They went on stage with the same outfits that I had seen them jumping out of the car in. That was a fantastic night… just superb.
R.V.B. – I saw that Paul McCartney visited the club when you were owners.
D.G. – That was just amazing. That was the 25th of October 1968. My dad was stocking the top bar at number 8 Mathew Street and Paul McCartney walks in. I was at the hairdresser at the time so I missed this little bit. He went over to my dad and shook his hand. My dad said “Hi… I’m Alf Geoghegan of The Cavern” and Paul said “Hi… Paul McCartney of The Cavern. I hope you don’t mind… I’ve got my girlfriend in the car outside and I’d like to show her where it all began. There’s one condition… that you don’t bring the press in.” My dad said “Sure.” He said “I have to go now but I’ll come back in about an hour. I have to deliver a record player over to Ruth… my step-sister.” So off he went. I came back from the hairdresser. Dad told me I missed him and I was mortified. He said “Don’t worry… there’s a chance that he’s going to come back. You keep stocking the bar and I’m going to Dale Street to buy a camera.” It was just a couple of blocks away. He asked Paul in he would mind if we took photographs, and Paul said “That’s fine as long as there’s no press involved.” So dad went and bought a camera at the camera shop. He asked the guy to come back with him to the club because he wanted the shutter and aperture settings to be set properly. He told the photographer he was taking photos of a group that was rehearsing, which was the truth. There was a group rehearsing. So he came and set up the camera and he said “Don’t touch it… it’s all ready to roll. All you have to do is press the button.” The camera was there waiting and I put Champagne on ice. We closed the door and waited for Paul to come back. We were hoping that he’d come back and he did. As soon as he came in with Linda, we closed the door. We walked to the top bar and my dad started to pour the Champagne. Linda said “I’ll do that… I’m a good bartender.” So she poured the Champagne. Dad said “Can we take some photographs?” Paul said “Yeah sure.” Linda said “I’ll do that… I’m a good photographer.” We didn’t realize how good of a photographer she was… we didn’t know at all!!!! She picked up the camera and turned all the dials on it. My father’s face was in study. I think he thought “Don’t turn it now!” She picked up the camera and took the photographs. She took the one of me with Paul, just outside the top bar. She took one of Paddy Delaney at the front of the top bar. She took a couple downstairs. After we’d been in the top bar… we stayed there about 20 minutes chattering. Paul was telling us that he’d just signed this group called The Ivey’s. The Ivey’s were regulars, when we owned the club. They were good friends of ours. Bill Collins was their manager. He was the father of Lewis Collins, who acted in The Professionals. They were a group from South Wales. They used to come over to Liverpool and do gigs at The Cavern. My dad ended up bringing them back to our house and giving them fish and chips for supper and they bed down in our front room for the night. They did this regularly. Paul had signed them and said “I’m thinking of calling them “Finger.” My dad said “Paul… I don’t like that! That’s bad.” Paul said “Bad… Thanks Alf. “Badfinger.” I like that.” That’s how Badfinger got their name.
R.V.B. – Interesting!!! They were a talented group. Did they generate a lot of excitement at your club?
D.G. – No… not really. They were an excellent group. Of course Pete Ham and Tommy Evans are no longer with us… sadly. The song that Paul wrote for them was “Come and Get it.” That was on the movie soundtrack of The Magic Christian and it was a good song. They were a very good group.
R.V.B. – That song was very popular over here in the States.
D.G. – It was a popular song. So we went down to the main part of the Cavern proper, after we talked in the top bar. There was a group on the stage rehearsing… that my dad managed. As we went down into the cellar, there was an upright piano outside the band room. Paul started to play Hey Jude. It was absolutely surreal. You could hear a pin drop. We were all transfixed like we were in a dream. When he finished, we just couldn’t believe it. He closed the lid to the piano and went into the band room and sat in on the drums with the band. Linda took more photographs of them.
R.V.B. – What group was there?
D.G. – The Curiosity Shoppe.
R.V.B. – Boy, were they in the right place at the right time.
D.G. – Weren’t they just. My dad managed them. That’s why they were there.
R.V.B. – Are all of these pictures in your book?
D.G. – Yes. The book was launched at the Cavern.
R.V.B. – Thank you very much for sharing your story. Looking forward to reading the book.
D.G. – Thank you Robert.
Interview Conducted by Robert von Bernewitz
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