Carol Kaye
Carol Kaye is a west coast based music educator/studio musician who has recorded on approximately 40,000 songs. Having been brought up in a musical family, Carol began playing guitar in her early teens. Through extensive practicing and live performance networking - in primarily the jazz genre - she connected with producers Phil Spector and Brian Wilson. This began a fruitful studio recording career that has resulted in an amazing output of hit songs that helped shape popular music. On one particular early session, the bass player didn't show up and Carol was asked to sit in on bass. Shortly after this incident, she became bass player of choice for an array of producers. As part of the group of studio musicians nicknamed "The Wrecking Crew", Carol appeared on hit songs such as: You've Lost That Loving Feeling (Righteous Brothers), Feeling Alright (Joe Cocker), The Way We Were (Barbra Streisand), Good Vibrations (The Beach Boys), Wichita Lineman (Glen Campbell) and many, many others. In my recent chat with Carol, we discussed her career and the current state of the music industry.
R.V.B. - Hi Carol... this is Rob from New York. How are you?
C.K. - Hi Rob. I'm fine and how are you?
R.V.B. - I'm doing pretty good but I'm still cold because it's been cold here for the last few months.
C.K. - It's still cold back there. Oh my goodness.
R.V.B. - We're a little jealous of you west coasters.
C.K. - Don't be too jealous because we don't have any water.
R.V.B. - I heard you guys are in a bit of a drought.
C.K. - A bit of a drought??? They've cut way, way back. They don't even have any water for the farmers now. It's bad now. Food prices are going through the roof. They've warned us not the flush the toilets so much now. We just can't waste any water at all. I'm tearing up my backyard to have a natural less maintenance yard. All I know is I'm used to taking a shower with a pail of water in an RV.
R.V.B. - Tell me about your current activities in the music community?
C.K. - I have a business. We sell my books here. I've been in business since 1969 when I first wrote my books. My books still sell around the world. They're educational bass books. I'm the leader in bass education, worldwide. They're accredited in music schools and colleges. All the bass players in the last 30 to 40 years... including Sting... learned to play bass from my books. You're of the younger generation so you may not know about it.
R.V.B. - I was born in 59 and caught the very beginning of the Beatles revolution. I had two older brothers. I was a little naive and under the impression that The Beach boys and Paul Revere and the Raiders, and other big bands from the 60's played their own songs.
C.K. - You and the rest of the public. I don't think the groups would come up and say "We lied! We didn't do our own records." Brian Wilson was the first one to blow the lid off of it... yes.
R.V.B. - Always admired the bass playing in the Beach Boys version of Sloop John B. I kind of figured that nobody from the group played it.
C.K. - If you see the film that's on my website... the arranger Perry Botkin was asked "Why didn't the groups cut their own records?" He replied "Because the band didn't play any good. It's as simple as that."
R.V.B. - Right... but the way you attacked that song...
C.K. - It's not just me... it was everybody. We were about 350 to 400 studio musicians who constantly recorded day and night, back then. It was a business. The public has no idea of that. The record company's certainly aren't going to tell you that. When blacks and whites were killing each other in the 60's, they certainly weren't going to tell you that some blonde girl was playing the bass on those hit records.
R.V.B. - How did you first get exposed to music and what happened to make you say "OK, this is music and I might want to play this."
C.K. - There was no choice back then. You have to understand that people had to work to make money to put food on the table. I've been working since I was nine years old. I started playing music at the age of 14. You heard music all around you... all the time. Unlike today, they had real music back then. People sung real songs. It was all carefully done. It wasn't licks and rock and roll. It was very complex music... that you could learn very fast... because you heard it all the time.
R.V.B. - Well back in the 50's, you had your Doo Wop going on... you had your big bands tailing off.
C.K. - You heard that!!! I didn't hear that at all!!! The kind of music I played was jazz!!! From the very start. Have you ever heard of Charlie Parker??? Have you ever heard of Ray Brown??? Have you ever heard of Howard Roberts???
R.V.B. - Charlie was one of the best sax players ever... Ray Brown was one of the best bass players ever.
C.K. - It doesn't matter if they were good or not. They were the tops in jazz. I was very well known in jazz, back in the 50's... being a guitar player around Los Angeles. George Shearing asked me to join his group. Most of the records that you heard in the 60's were cut by jazz players... not rockers. The record company's weren't going to let you know who really did the records. We were totally independent of each other. It has been that way since the 1920's when recording had started. They hired only the finest musicians... who could invent... who could site read... who didn't use drugs... who didn't drink. The most experienced musicians in the world. The studio work paid the best. It paid 10 times the amount of anyone who travels on the road.
R.V.B. - Did you ever travel on the road or were you always in the studio?
C.K. - Everybody did! I traveled with a big band in 1954-55... yes.
R.V.B. - Where did you travel to?
C.K. - All over the country... honey!
R.V.B. - You made it to New York?
C.K. - Yeah... I've been to New York. I recorded there a little bit. I don't even care about New York. I don't care to live there or anything. The people from New York were all moving out here in the 60's. This is where the work was.
R.V.B. - Not only the people from New York. Chicago... Texas...everyone was moving to California... including our baseball teams.
C.K. - Not much of the other places... they were coming from New York. The studio musicians were coming. Not just everybody. You had to be the best of what you could do.
R.V.B. - Did you have any fellow musicians that were personal friends to you.
C.K. - Well the most recorded drummer in the world was Earl Palmer... and I used to work with drummer Billy Higgins. I played almost every night with Billy, when I did my jazz gigs. I played with Earl a lot in the studio... yes. There's quite a few. You don't have time to socialize. When you recorded 12 to 14 hours a day, you're damn lucky to go home and get five to six hours sleep. Hahaha.
R.V.B. - That was your schedule. You'll be doing Mancini one day... The Beach Boys the next.
C.K. - No no... you did them all in one day. You did a film call... you did The Beach Boys... you did Ray Charles... you did Mancini... all in one day. This was day after day, after day, like this. You would do two to four record dates a day which has three to five songs a record date. A record date is three hours long.
R.V.B. - it's very impressive when you go down a list of songs that you appeared on.
C.K. - It was like 40,000 songs. I've done over 10,000 record dates. Everybody did thousands of record dates.
R.V.B. - Of all the record dates that you did, are there any that are your particular favorites?
C.K. - There's a few of them that I like. The Feeling Alright record date... The Way We Were, which was a big hit for Barbra Streisand. That was a favorite of mine. Some of the Ray Charles things. A few of The Beach Boys. There's quite a few things that I like. The things that we got tired of playing and recording was the surf rock... because it was so simple. One guy called is "disc digger music" because that's what it felt like. After playing that for a few years, you were very thrilled to play anything else. It was a business... people don't understand. First of all, we're not stars... we're musicians. We are the top of the line musicians who had all this experience and big names, before we did studio work. When you do studio work, that's insured business for years to come. You take good care of it. You never say no because you could be out next week... if they find out you lied. You don't lie... you take care of business. You're more square in the studio work than anyplace else in the world. None of us were stupid enough to use drugs or anything like that. That's silly stuff.
R.V.B. - You might think of yourself as a business person, but other people who admire the work that you created might think you're a star.
C.K. - No! Stars are pre-made and are set up to be criticized. Musicians are in it for their talent and to make money at it. That's their business.
R.V.B. - You received some nice awards for your work.
C.K. - I've received awards for innovation. I received awards as a woman. I've gotten awards from Hollywood... arrangers and composers awards... for all the inventive bass lines that I did on film. I've gotten awards for my teaching. That's real! That's not being a star. That's being great at your craft. A star doesn't have to be a talent to be a star. I'm a musician and a teacher. I've been one since 1949. That's what I'm good at and that's what I like to do.
R.V.B. - Do you teach a variety of styles?
C.K. - I teach only jazz. I teach on Skype worldwide. I teach the top pro's. I do help anybody who wants to be helped.
R.V.B. - Do you have any friends who come by to jam are do you have a local ensemble.
C.K. - How old do you think I am? I'm almost 80 years old. I've done more playing that 50 other bass players or guitar players. You think I want to go out and jam? Do you ask a bus driver once he's done driving a bus, "Don't you drive a bus for fun?" No you don't! I'm the only one who plays music in my home. As other studio musicians, when you work in the house, it's all quiet. When you record in a studio for 10 to 14 hours a day, your body is bombarded by sounds and music. It's fun for a while but you don't know what it does to your body and your mind. You're tired after 55 to 60 years of working. I'm tired!!!
R.V.B. - Have you had any issues with your hearing as a result of your craft?
C.K. - No. It's not a loud rock and roll band. In the studio, you have baffles and muted instruments. It's a different scene. I have no problems with my hearing at all.
R.V.B. - During your sessions... did you use the same studio for bigger bands as with smaller ensembles?
C.K. - Sometimes. Later on it was the rhythm thing. All composers had to do was hire a rhythm section to invent their lines. They built their arrangement on top of what we invented. They would write to according to what we played.
R.V.B. - You played the 12 string guitar on Frank Zappa's first two albums?
C.K. - Yeah... part of the albums. I liked Frank. I thought he was a good guy.
R.V.B. - You also played guitar on a Richie Valens track. How did you go from playing guitar on tracks to primarily playing bass?
C.K. - The bass player didn't show up one day in 1963, so they put me on bass. I thought "OK this is more fun than playing rinky dink stuff on the guitar." I could invent what I wanted on bass. You only had to carry in one instrument instead of five or six. I am the most recorded bass player... male or female. Maybe I should string a wire across the falls over by you and walk across the wire for my encore. Hahaha.
R.V.B. - I very much enjoyed some of the tracks that you did, such as Indian Reservation, La Bamba and the Zappa stuff. You should be proud of your career.
C.K. - Richie Valens did his own solo work by the way. I am proud of my career but you all try to make it something that it's not. We're not stars... we're musicians. We're business people. We did it for the money to raise our children. We didn't do it for ourselves, we did it for our children. I raised three all by myself. Everybody else had children too. We did it not because we loved the music. At first it was fun because people could really sing. Sam Cooke could sing. The Righteous Brothers could sing. All those people could sing. It wasn't the crap that they got now, where they try to take a non-talent and try to turn them into a star. Those were talented people and we enjoyed that. We went from Be-bop to Ba-ba-da-da-da. We had to dumb down to do it. It was kind of fun for a while because the singers could sing and we were all in there, making money for our children.
R.V.B. - You mentioned singers. The 50's had vocal groups, and there was the folk revival. When The Beatles came in and took over America, did that alter anything?
C.K. - They didn't take over America. They were just another group. I'm not putting them down. I'm just saying that were just another group of the thousands of groups that were recording at that time. I talked to a producer and he said "They were copying you." As soon as they came out, we copied them. It went back and forth like that. "It all started with you guys."
R.V.B. - They do have a point there. You did play on Sloop John B, before Sgt. Peppers. Were you on any other Pet Sounds tracks?
C.K. - With The Beach Boys, I did Help Me Rhonda... I did Good Vibrations... California Girls. That was a very small part of my recording career. I'm on Feeling Alright too. That was a lot of fun. We didn't have to wait three hours to cut one tune. That's the way Brian worked. Brian did a tune in three hours time. Most of the records were three to five tunes in the three hour time period. So it got boring.
R.V.B. - You're talking about the musician point of it. They would have to do the overdub.
C.K. - I'm not into stardom... staritis'. I think it's a disease. Back then, they admired real singers. Today they admire somebody because they're famous??? Give me a break!
R.V.B. - What do you feel about the state of the music industry right now?
C.K. - It sucks.
R.V.B. - Did the digital world hurt it or help it.
C.K. - I don't know. I've used digital for the educational things. I know what a real instrument sounds like. I know what a trumpet sounds like... I know what real drums sound like... real bass. Most of the engineers today don't! They try to engineer all styles of music like a rock record. I think that that's terrible. I think the great sounds that were recorded in the 40's and 50's were fantastic. They now make the drums sound like a popcorn machine. It has nothing to do with digital. It's because they don't know the sounds of the real band. Digital can make it sound good. Like with Ray Brown's bass and with Joe Pass... or when I put out an album.
R.V.B. - Does the digital world put a damper on today's session musicians because they have sampled sounds?
C.K. - I don't think so at all. It's how it's used. If you're with an engineer who knows how to use it... It's great.
R.V.B. - In Los Angeles and in Hollywood now, how is the music business fairing?
C.K. - It's about 1/100th of what it used to be. It's sad that the albums were overpriced. The CD's came out and people would steal the music. I've had people steal my books on line too! Why steal things??? Sometimes I think people love to steal. It's in their personality. It doesn't matter if they're rich or poor.
R.V.B. - The internet made it easy to steal.
C.K. - Right. It brought the industry to its knees. That's why hardly anybody's working. They take a no talent singer and bend their notes to make them sound like they're singing in tune. They can control that singer on stage. They can do all kinds of things. What they have is a sterile product that has no feeling, and has made up sounds that aren't real. It's horrible. People don't know what's wrong. We know what's wrong! We play music and we can hear it. It just turned into madness at a time when people need music. But!!!! There is a lot of music going on. It's not in Hollywood... it's not in New York. In every town in this country, there are musicians who are playing real music and people love it. You don't know about it because the magazines don't know about it. Club owners are being screwed with the fees and the fines that the cities charge. The cities are broke, so what do they do? They make it almost impossible to have a night club... or it's in a bad part of town. It's really a tough business. It used to be tough but it's tougher now. The players don't make any money playing clubs. Back in the 50's, jazz gigs paid about $30 bucks a night. The price in Los Angeles has been raised to about $70. Which is fine but housing costs 20 times more.
R.V.B. - A lot of musicians are in it for their own enjoyment and the love of music. The money is nice. I make some money at a few gigs.
C.K. - Well you're glad to get the money though... right?
R.V.B. - Of course. It pays for the milk... it pays for the gas.
C.K. - It can lead up to private gigs. There's a lot of money in private gigs. But you have to know jazz... you have to know standards. You have to know all styles of music to work these gigs. There's lots of private gigs but they're not going to tell you that because they don't want any competition.
R.V.B. - My general overall point is, music will never die and live music is ten times better than a DJ.
C.K. - You're right.
R.V.B. - Even if the band or performer is not all that good. I appreciate the fact that they're making the effort and creating art.
C.K. - That part is good...yes.
R.V.B. - I wish the industry would just go back to selling vinyl records. Where you can hold the artwork and have the interaction experience of playing and flipping an album. This cloud business of MP3's is inferior quality.
C.K. - We had engineers who knew what infinite sound was like. It doesn't matter if it was vinyl or CD. I've gotten great sounds with vinyl... I've gotten great sounds with digital. People would think that it was vinyl. I want to go in the studio and hear real sounds. Not where in rock and roll when they build up the sound of the bass drum until you can't even hear the bass. It's crazy how people had dumbed' way down... but they'll go to these schools. These schools don't even know how to teach this stuff. The engineers just don't know. That's gonna affect the music business regardless of what you record on. When we recorded in the studio, the engineer always walked in the room to hear the sounds that we were getting. He wanted to make sure that he duplicated those same sounds. Most of the times there was no EQ or anything. They didn't compress sounds back then. We knew how to get the sounds and the engineer knew to come out and listen to us. That doesn't happen anymore. People who play an instrument have no idea how to get a groove. They say "How do you groove?" Practice with the metronome on two and four like all the jazz musicians did. Like all the big band players did. To play fast and to show off is a priority. You hear the 'Me me me!!!' in the music. There's no love of music in their playing! 'Listen to what I can play?' The singer is saying "Man... that was a good note!" They're thinking that. It's coming out in their voice and you can hear it. Until people stop thinking of themselves and get into the music, the music business is doomed.
R.V.B. - Is there anybody out there today that catches your ear??? when you say "OK... I like them!
C.K. - Some of the jazz singers... I say some!!!
R.V.B. - Like Diana Krall?
C.K. - She's alright. She's young yet. She's been responsible for people getting into jazz. I put her up for that. That is good. Listen to some of guys who sings jazz. Some of the are very, very good.
R.V.B. - Like I said... can you name anyone?
C.K. - I've got a million names in my head. I don't remember everybody's name. I can't remember off the top of my head. "McConnell." The kid down south from New Orleans, that sings standards... he's gotten very good... (Harry Connick Jr.) He's a copy cat. Artie Shaw and I talked about him. Artie said "He's good, but he's a copy cat." Now he has his own style going. He's very good. He's in tune and you can tell he likes the music. There's a fellow out here that's got a raspy voice. I can't think of his name. He's very good. They're into the music. 99% of the singers are not into the music. They're like "Ok... let's make some money. Listen how good I am!" It shows. The way that they sing... the nuances... you can hear that!!!. "Look at me... I'm so good." Who gives a shit!!!
R.V.B. - How do you feel about rock music?
C.K. - Some of it was good. We got tired of recording it day and night. We got burned out. After a while... about 1969, I quit. Because the music that we were recording started to sound like cardboard. I said "I gotta stop!" Hahaha. "This is it!"
R.V.B. - Did you ever play disco music?
C.K. - Yeah, I did. It was mostly film and TV calls. I did stuff in 'Wonder Woman' and stuff like that.
R.V.B. - I'm impressed with all the great tracks that you played on.
C.K. We all played on them!!! It wasn't just a bass player. There's strings.. horn's... everybody...
R.V.B. - I know that but you have to be proud of yourself!
C.K. - I'm proud of the work that I did, so that I could take care of my kids, so that they didn't have to starve... like I did!
R.V.B. - You're not proud of the work that you created???
C.K. - I don't even think about it. Who sits around and thinks about it??? I'm on to educating people so people so that they can play well. The schools teach the wrong stuff. You have ex-rockers trying to teach jazz and they have no clue. They teach people wrong and they make people give up on ever playing. It's not them... it's the material that's given to the students, that causes them to quit. That's what I'm thinking about all the time.
R.V.B. - I guess I understand.
C.K. - That's what I'm trying to tell you. Any musician worth their salt... anybody who's done a lot of work... it's all... yeah, I'm proud on some stuff that I played on that people like... I'm pleased with that... I don't sit around thinking about it all the time. I'm thinking about how to make somebody play, who's gotten screwed and told "You have got no talent." They have talent, but they're being screwed at out of money... but and/or being taught the wrong crap... in a accredited school. I'm trying to fix the problem, just like a lot of other people are. We're all aware of that.
R.V.B. - We'll that's fantastic. Keep up that work. You're legacy will be realized. I realize it.
C.K. - Well, I'm very proud, upon the thousands and thousands, of top professional bass players, who learned to play from my books... in the past 40 something years... I'm proud of them. They learned from my books, and they've come out and had great careers. I'm concerned at the stuff that they try to call "education" today. It's atrocious!!! Just awful. Me, and quite a few other teachers, that I've have taught... by the way. I'm trying to help deal with this right now. The education we provided was what started the composers standards. Those tunes that will live forever. the finest composers of film comes from jazz. The education is what started the composers writing standards. Those tunes that will live forever! The finest composers of film were jazz players... first. If they don't know how to teach it... where is the music going to come from?
R.V.B. - What do you enjoy doing when you're not playing music? Do you take walks?
C.K. - Sleep. Hahaha
R.V.B. - Hahaha. Do you cook?
C.K. - Nah! I don't cook. I go out to eat or I heat something up. I used to do all of that. I used to race go carts with my son. I used to fish... I used to run... I used to bowl. I used to do all that stuff. I'm almost 80 years old. I'm not going to go out and wear my body out, doing stuff that I got no business doing. I'm happy teaching or just taking a little walk...that's it. I'm happy that I'm teaching and spreading a great way of learning music. I'm training them in jazz quickly. I get a blast out of that. they're so surprised they can play. I love it because I'm teaching them the joy of music... that has disappeared today. I'm helping to rectify this situation.
R.V.B. - I'm glad that you're sharing your wealth of talent.
C.K. - It's kind of hard for people like you, to get something from me that's worthwhile. I don't think like you. We're keeping on going with a goal of music in life. Half of us are glad it's over with. Hahaha. It was hard to cut things that you don't like.
R.V.B. - I'm also interested at the human aspect of it. You're doing what you like at this moment in your life. Your goal is to make sure people learn how to play their instruments.
C.K. - I'm doing something worthwhile. You can't beat that. They learn how to play well and enjoy it like we did. That's the score right there.
R.V.B. - Thank you for taking this time and I hope your yard comes out good.
C.K. Thank you... take care.
Interview conducted by Robert von Bernewitz
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For more information on Carol - or bass lessons - visit her website www.carolkaye.com
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