Gentle Giant
Gentle Giant is set to release a compilation retrospective of their first three albums titled "Three Piece Suite". The band had a creative career that spanned the entire decade of the 1970's through mid 1980. From the outset, Gentle Giant wanted to be different and not fall into the rut of playing the same radio friendly pop hits over and over. The formation of the band morphed out of the group Simon Dupree and the Big Sound when brothers Derek, Ray and Phil Shulman - who are all multi-instrumentalists - got together with Gary Green and Kerry Minnear - who are also multi-instrumentalists. The original drummer Martin Smith, played on the first two albums. Smith was replaced by Malcolm Mortimore for the 3rd album "Three Friends". After getting injured in a motorcycle accident, Mortimore was not well enough to play on the support tour for the album, and at that point, John Weathers eventually became the final drummer. Gentle Giant produced 11 studio albums in its lifespan and shared the stage with acts such as Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull, Frank Zappa, King Crimson, The Eagles and many more. The new release Three Piece Suite features original album mixes and the Steven Wilson re-mixes from the surviving masters of the first three albums. I recently spoke with Derek Shulman about the Gentle Giant story as well as his career as a record executive afterwards.
R.V.B. - Hi Derek... this is Rob von Bernewitz from Long Island, thank you very much for taking this time.
D.S. - No problem.
R.V.B. - How long have you been in the New York area?
D.S. - It's been close to 38 years now. I came here around 1980.
R.V.B. - Right near the end of the Gentle Giant run. Congratulations on your career.
D.S. - Thank you.
R.V.B. - It must be nice being you, having a nice career as a musician and then following it up in the record industry executive side. You had success in both areas. What is the secret formula?
D.S. - Haha. I guess I've been proactive in both composing in a band as well as the dark side of the business... as it used to be called. I don't know if it's called that anymore. Just being proactive as opposed of waiting for things to come to you. I've always gone towards it. I guess I had that in my personality... and my drive to what I've wanted to achieve. I guess it's in my character. Success is relative of course but at least I've made some kind of mark in my life... and hopefully others as well.
R.V.B. - Well you certainly have a very impressive resume. So you came from a musical family... what instrument did you start off with?
D.S. - I started with the guitar. There were instruments all over the house... because my father was a professional musician. He was a trumpet player and a bandleader in the jazz/slap swing era. He played in a dance band but he loved modern jazz. He played trumpet but he also played incredible sax. He was just an incredible musician. My first instrument was the guitar but I learned alto sax and baritone sax. It was genetic I think. It's part of our DNA as the Shulman brothers. Having DNA in our music and in our lives. I thought it as normal for most families but apparently it wasn't.
R.V.B. - Did you see your father play professionally?
D.S. - Yes... thankfully we did. Even though he died at a very young age, we did in fact see him play. He saw us play as a beginner band. He was always very encouraging, as was my mother. Music was his life.
After seeing your father play did you realize right away that you were going to follow in his footsteps?
D.S. - Music was always part of our home. My father's music buddies would come over after shows - late at night and into the morning - and play in our house. We had a house full of music. Both of my parents were very encouraging in our education. That was very important. We went to grammar schools that weren't easy to get into. Music... as far as I'm concerned, was the way I wanted to live my life. I didn't want to be a physician, lawyer or god knows what else. I remember at one point in the grammar school, there was a career counselor who would come around and ask our class what their aspirations were. It was a boys school and he asked "A scientist, architect or doctor?" I said I wanted to be a pop star. There was a laugh in the class and everyone didn't believe what I said. I actually knew it when I was about 12 or 13 years old. When I was 17 and still at school, I was.
R.V.B. - With all of the talent in your family, how did you wind up being the singer and front man? Did you take singing lessons or did it just come naturally? Was It difficult deciding who was going to play what instrument in the band?
D.S. - We were all adept at playing instruments and singing in tune. My sister - who passed away quite a few years ago - was an incredible singer. She was the one encouraging me - and us - but certainly me... to sing along with her. She was also a jazz singer. It was something that just came naturally to everyone of us in the family.
R.V.B. - Was Simon Dupree your first band?
D.S. - I formed that band. It was originally called "The Roadrunners" at first. It was formed in Portsmouth England - on the south coast. I formed the band from school friends. It was an R&B band. I loved the American music that I heard on Radio Luxemburg... and the off shore stations of the American forces. We became fairly popular. I was instrumental in putting my school friends in the band - and then kicking them out and getting new people on board. I had just got back from Portsmouth where the two bands Simon Dupree and Gentle Giant were inducted into the Portsmouth Hall of Fame. It happened last week. I just got back a couple of days ago. We received a blue plaque. We're next to Charles Dickens and Arthur Conandoyle. It's interesting that we have that kind of lineage in the world. Anyway, it was me and my school friends. I dragged in Ray, who was taking classical violin lessons. He was an amazing violinist and destined to be in the band, as well as Phil... my older brother.
R.V.B. - When you brought your brothers in, what was the process on who was going to play what part? You were all so prolific with many instruments.
D.S. - Way back - before Phil Joined - I was the lead guitarist and singer, and Ray was a bass player. I realized that I wasn't that good of a guitarist while singing at the same time. We made a decision of having my brother Ray to be the lead guitarist. I dropped the guitar and played the bass. That was back in the earliest days... before we invited Phil to be in the band - to play sax and have some vocal responsibilities.
R.V.B. - You had some early success. How did you wind up getting signed?
D.S. - We had very successful live shows with Simon Dupree. We played all the clubs in the area. We branched out to other places on the south coast and ultimately to London. This is while we were still at school. We had a very, very strong following. That was back in the days of The Spencer Davis Group and The Move. This the middle/late 60s... when this whole thing was happening. We had a pretty damn good name and we had a big following. In fact my brother-in-law - who was our earliest manager - was actually a BBC producer. He said "Let me help you and see if I can get an audition with EMI." He did. We did a demo in Bristol, England and he brought it along to the EMI people. They said "Come on up." Effectively what we did as a group was go up to Abbey Road and play our full set in front of all the producers that were there... including George Martin, David Paramor and Norrie Paramor. They sat and watched the group. We were offered a deal of one single. That was our first ever deal.
R.V.B. - That sounds like a very exciting day.
D.S. - It was exciting thinking "Did we get a deal or not?" We did get a deal. We had a deal with Parlophone - which The Beatles were on. That was very important to us. We progressed from there.
R.V.B. - What do you suppose was in the air in England with such great music being made at that time? So many great artists came out of that area. Was it survival and competition that brought everybody to a higher level?
D.S. - It was a whole social and cultural movement where the young people were taking over... If you like. In the middle/late 60s, it was a whole cultural and social issue. Things like the birth pill being invented. Teenagers were making a big impact in the cultural world. The big boomer generation. In the UK, it was still very much a poor system, where you were either upper class or lower class. If you were lower class, you were destined to become an apprentice, or a minor, or a dockyard worker. The only way to get out of that was to, one... being a football player or number two... being pop star. I was the 2nd.
R.V.B. - So you had your pop success, and you became a pop star with Simon Dupree. There was a lot of changes going on in music. The Beatles took pop stardom through the stratosphere. Progressive rock was in its infant stage. When Simon Dupree took its course, and you went into the Gentle Giant stage, you had a plan to change things up and experiment a little. Do you feel that it was a unique thing that you were doing in music?
D.S. - Other people were doing it, because obviously at the same time we were putting Gentle Giant together and Simon Dupree were splitting up, bands like Pink Floyd were being signed. I, and the band were getting a little disillusioned - by being put into a pop world - where it was expected that we were playing these venues where they wanted to hear hits. We were expanding our own musicality. We were being throttled by the hits around our necks... if you'd like. It was almost like a millstone. That's why we broke up the band and said "Let's do something completely different." We were fortunate in the respect that we were patronized by a new manager - Gerry Braun - to come up with new ideas and new players. We took about six to nine months putting a new band together... that would ultimately become Gentle Giant.
R.V.B. - Was there anyone else that may have been performing at that time that may have provided a spark to your decision to start something new?
D.K. - There were great musicians out there that ultimately became massive stars. In those days in England, there was an incredible scene where a band like Episode Six became Deep Purple... where Band of Joy became Led Zeppelin... where League of Gentleman became King Crimson. These bands that we knew, were friends of ours. They became different bands in different genres and became massive classic rock bands. It was nothing we saw... everyone was evolving... and getting our music chops together. It was almost like osmosis. We were influenced by our background - being jazz or classical music - which is also part of our heritage... but also the ability to get better musically, and not be stifled by music in the pop world. We wanted to move forward and do something which was completely different. There wasn't a lesson... it was almost like a blank page. We could write our own chapter to it. That's what we did.
R.V.B. - So you went on to make your first album - which is part of the new release. I presume most of the songs on the first album had been road tested?
D.S. - Effectively, that was the live show. We put the band together and went out on the road. That is exactly correct... they had been road tested. When you hear some of the songs on the album, there's a drum solo. It was cut down on the album. Who puts a drum solo on an album these days? Some songs were left off and didn't make the cut. It was the first repertoire of the band.
R.V.B. - What was your first trip to America like?
D.S. - That wasn't until 1972. We only played in Europe for the first three albums. We became very popular in the UK first. Then Sweden - Scandinavia - and then Italy - which was a very big market for us. That was prior coming to America. We came over to America during "Octopus" - which is the 4th album. Our first American tour was with Black Sabbath. It was a very bizarre pairing. Sabbath was making their claim to fame and we were support on that tour. We would come on and get booed, but ultimately get the crowd on our side. That was the first tour. Then we came over again with Jethro Tull... who we had toured in Europe with. Ian and the band were great... in fact. They loved us and we loved them. That was our big breakthrough... if you like.
R.V.B. - Your music is compatible to each other... with Jethro Tull.
D.K. - We toured with everyone and with different styles of music - whether it was Black Sabbath or The Eagles. It wasn't the same as today where you are matched in styles. It was much more of a free for all.
R.V.B. - Can you share some classic experiences you may have had at a concert?
D.S. - It's a classic known fact that at the Hollywood Bowl - where we were playing with Black Sabbath - at the end of that tour - Sabbath had discovered the magic potions of white powder and other things. It was a frustrating tour. We loved the guys but they imbibed quite a lot. We were getting booed mercifully because they were big Sabbath fans. We were starting to win the crowd over and then someone threw a cherry bomb on to the stage. My brother Phil and I stopped the band. I said "This is bullshit." Phil went up to the mic and said "You guys are a bunch of cunts." That got a great boo. It was one of the best boos that I've ever heard in my life.
R.V.B. - Yeah, that sounds like a memorable experience. Hahaha
D.S. - When you reflect back on it "Oh shit... what have we done." We got through the gig but we weren't particularly liked by the LA audience for a couple of years. But we did a lot of shows as support or we had bands support us. One of the best tours was Zappa, King Crimson and Gentle Giant. That tour was superb. It was a great package. We all loved each other's music and also enjoyed each other's company. Tull was also a good match with us.
R.V.B. - As far as the writing process with Gentle Giant, and the progression throughout the 11 albums that you had made. Were you always looking to try out new things even though it deviated from the previous album?
D.S. - Always... every album. We're not going to follow a pattern. We tried to progress from where we were. Every album had its merits. The fans of the mid-term stuff, were fans of the later stuff. It made no difference to us. It was just our way of expressing ourselves. There wasn't a road map of what we wanted to do. We just did it.
R.V.B. - A lot of the songs have a great deal of complexity. As being the lead singer, were the songs created for you to put words to or was it a collaborative process along the way?
D.S. - The band was never really a chordal band. The vocals were part of the structure of the composition. The band composed music in an orchestral fashion. That was Kerry Minnear's contribution... he had a degree in composition. The vocals were part of the overall entity of what Gentle Giant was. It was rare when the vocals would oversee the chordal patterns. They were part of the composition.
R.V.B. - I definitely feel that when I'm listening to the music. I also feel a diversity from one song to the next... on your live performances as well as your albums. There is genre switching within the same package.
D.S. - That is what we did. We enjoyed it and we loved it. It was something that challenged ourselves personally... to get better personally as a band and to help each other become better musicians. If we became better musicians together, we'd get fans to come see us. We were always pushing ourselves to the limit.
R.V.B. - What are you proud of about Gentle Giant's place in music?
D.S. - The fact that we're still talking about it. Here we are some 37 years later. The fact that people are still interested in what we produced musically - on vinyl - which is what we produced in those days and on stage... which was a different situation entirely. It's still relevant. In that respect, it's something that I'm proud of.
R.V.B. - You do have a cult following. I have a drummer friend of mine who has seen you many times... including The Calderone here on Long Island. Do you remember playing there?
D.S. - Sure of course. Kiss was the first band and we were on later in the evening. I know the guys in Kiss very well. They remembered us as well. It was a great show.
R.V.B. - My point is that you do have a big following that might not be the main stream. You did hard work and you deserve it.
D.S. - We're also very proud of what we put together live. It was very different to what we did on record. The record was almost like a sketch for the live show. On the live show, we would expand our musicality to do different kinds of things. We put on a show that was entertaining but also musically diverse.
R.V.B. - There sure was a lot going on.
D.S. - We loved to surprise people. One thing we hated was boredom.
R.V.B. - So things happen and don't always work out - bands break up - which Gentle Giant did. Was it that things just ran its course and it was time to go on to something new?
D.S. - Effectively, yes. I was married with a kid and so was Kerry. We certainly could of carried on because we did have a big following. I think that creatively, we were starting to wonder if the juices had dried up or not. We did a North American tour and it kind of felt like a rote situation. When something starts to feel like a job with music, as opposed to putting something which is exciting and passionate for me... or us... then it's time to stop it. It felt like, "Ok we have to tour on top of this album. Let's check in and check out." When you get that feeling, it's time to stop. That happens across the board, no matter what profession you are in.
R.V.B. - You made to switch, as you say "Over to the dark side". Hahaha
D.S. - That's colloquially speaking. There was the record company versus the musician. It wasn't quite the case but musicians would always say that.
R.V.B. - Was your first tasks in the business to scout other talent?
D.S. - My first task was to get records on the radio. There were two fans of Gentle Giant, who were very influential in the radio world. One was Lee Abrahams. He had a company called Burkhart/Abrams and they were consultants to radio stations. The other person was Jeff Pollack, who had a company called Pollack Media. They were both fans of Gentle Giant. I think that's why I got hired. They are still friends of mine. I talked to radio stations about artists on Polygram Records. I landed my first job at Polygram. I realized there is all this stuff there that no one knows about. I also got involved with finding new talent. I did that at virtually the same time. That was my transformation into A & R.
R.V.B. - Did you have to go to clubs and scout talent?
D.S. - To a degree, but it was much more of a song era. Standing around clubs was not for me. It wasn't something that I particularly liked to do unless I knew what I was looking for. For the most part, it was usually a manager of an attorney coming to the offices. They would say "I've got this band. Here's what they look like... here's what they sound like." If I thought they had potential, I would go see the band.
R.V.B. - I see that you climbed the ladder fairly quickly. How long were you with Polygram and what were your main achievements there?
D.S. - Approximately six years. My first legal signing - when I walked in - within three months, was Bon Jovi. I realized number one, that the company had an ability, but didn't quite know what that ability was. So I saw it to break rock bands. I walked in not knowing corporations or whatever that means. When I heard the song Runaway... which was offered to me by an attorney in Philadelphia, I thought "This is a great song. Who is this?" The attorney said "His name is John Bongiovi. He is also on an LP which is being played on the radio right now in New York... WAPP." I heard the song and I thought it had a great chorus and it was an outstanding song... "What else do you have?" He played me a couple of other songs that were interesting. So I went to see John and the band a couple of times. They were OK. He was incredible. There were changes to be made. I got my feet, hands and everything else wet with John and Bon Jovi. I helped name the band. I helped find the management and put the first album together. That was with his second cousin Tony - who he worked at The Power Station. (Recording Studio) Runaway was a fairly successful song. It just made the top 40. John and the band Bon Jovi became touring monsters, by their managers ability to get them on the road and learn. So that was my first signing. From there I went on to sign other bands... Cinderella, Kingdom Come, Tears for Fears, Men Without Hats, Dexy's Midnight Runners... etcetera.
R.V.B. - That's a nice roster from the 80's
D.S. - I had the UK connections.
R.V.B. - That was an exciting time period for music, with MTV being in full swing. Were you involved with the nitty gritty, day to day, hands on stuff or just overseeing things?
D.S. - Both. With bands that I knew - or thought - had potential of being a really big band... I got in the trenches with them. I listened to the music and sometimes wrote the music with them... and found the right producers. It was very important to work inside the company. I realized that at a record company - from the very first day - every office had their own priorities. It even happens today. I had to go into the company and work with each individual person that ran a department, to make sure what I believed in, they believed in. It was the right move... certainly with some of the big bands that I had signed.
R.V.B. - You got off to an amazing start with that portion of your life. You moved over to ATCO after a while. That label has some history.
D.S. - I guess I was hot. Hahaha. I was very taken by Steve Ross - who was running Warner music - and they offered me a joint venture. The label ATCO Records was dormant at that point. I said "Let me try running a company." I wanted to see if I would enjoy it - and for the most part I did. I went over there in 89' and put a great team together... which is very important. I happened to know what my personal strengths are and my personal weaknesses are, and make sure that they're covered by other people that could cover for me. I built a company which was very successful. I was there for six or seven years and had some fantastic success... some failures but I learned a lot about myself too. At that point, I had bands that I was going to sign to Polygram, like Pantera. they were one of my first signings at ATCO... other bands also like Dream Theater. These are my own hands on things... even though I was President and CEO of the company. These are the kind of bands that I would get in the trenches with... Bad Company. AC/DC was one where even though they were signed to Atlantic, they were going to be dropped. They're recent albums were not very good and they had a big deal. I had traded with Doug Morris, who was with Atlantic. A couple of artists who were already signed at ATCO... Stevie Nicks. He said "I'm not interested in AC/DC anymore, would you like to trade?" I said "Yes I would." I got together with the guys of AC/DC and they trusted me, because I was a musician and I also knew the elder brother George. I was able to get them in the studio in Vancouver where they made The Razors Edge with Thunder Struck. That became a massive comeback album for them.
R.V.B. - I've heard Thunderstruck at many sporting events.
D.S. - That was on the album that I helped resurrect. The first ever Dr. Dre production under my watch. I didn't know too much about hip hop. Jerry Heller who ran Ruthless Records, was already signed to the company. He told me this Jay Jay fad was going to be a hit. I knew Jerry from before. He did this album called "Michel'le". That became a huge hit for us. Anyway, it was a fantastic run and it had a lot of big hits.
R.V.B. - Did you sense changes in the wind with the record industry, at this time?
D.S. - It was becoming massive. It was not a small niche anymore. It became a giant global money maker. Warner Music Group and Time had got together. We flew down to the Bahamas when it became Time Warner. I realized that this conglomerate was a shitty mix. At that point I was becoming less involved in the day to day music part - and putting on a suit - and more and more to go to meetings. That flipped me out, to tell you the truth. I hated the whole aspect of being an executive.
R.V.B. - How about when the internet kicked in. How did that change things in the record industry?
D.S. - The first big change came when CD's came in to replace vinyl. The internet took over after that. It was a new way of listening to and distributing music. The record companies didn't embrace it yet... which was a dumb shit move. After ATCO, I went on to run roadrunner.
R.V.B. - Was there a change in signing talent when the internet came in?
D.S. - It's almost like full circle in a lot of ways. When I was signed as Simon Dupree and the Big Sound, where we didn't have a record deal. We played and played and got our fan base. Then we got our record deal - which was one single. The single was a low top 40 hit. We played our asses off and got a ton of fans. Today, If you think that you're going to be an overnight success, you're wrong. You have to put a ton of work behind it. You have to be damn good at what you do. You have to also write great songs. The puzzle in the 80s and 90s had empty pieces... It was MTV and radio. Now the puzzle has hundreds and thousands of pieces. Those pieces, you have to be really good at across the board. It's not just getting likes on Instagram and Spotify. You have to be a great band, write great songs and be unique. The biggest bands were always unique. They weren't the followers, they were leaders.
R.V.B. - Do you think that there's enough room for everyone to survive in all the genres like R & B, classical music, rock, country and the pie to go around?
D.S. - Yes I do, but it depends what you want as a pie. If you want a big cream pie with ice cream and cherries on top... no! That's rare. If you just want to make a living as a musician... yes! That's what I always did. I wanted to be able to put bread on the table. That was enough. If we got jam with the bread, that was a bonus. There's a whole idea of celebrity and stardom. If there's enough room for that? No there isn't. If you want to make your way as a musician... there's always a way! Just work hard, be unique and be good.
R.V.B. - Well you put a lot of hard work in and achieved some great goals and made great music. You have your new release coming out in September and I'm sure everybody is eagerly waiting for it. Is there any chance for a reunion concert?
D.S. - No! It was a chapter in our lives and the chapter is closed. There's no point in trying to re-open it. At the same time, we'd be awful to think about being a parody of yourself... 37 years ago. It was a different era and different life. I'm glad that people look back and have a fondness for it but you can't re-live your history.
R.V.B. - You do have a very nice history, being pioneers of early progressive rock. Do you still see any of the other band members?
D.S. - I see my brother Ray when we go back to the UK. We meet quite often. I have my brother Phil, of course. I see Kerry a couple of times a year. I see Gary very, very rarely. I saw him several years ago. I haven't seen John for a long time. He hasn't been feeling very well... he's in Wales. When I was over there last week - I saw the first drummer in Simon Dupree - I hadn't seen him in nearly 50 years. That was a shock.
R.V.B. - It must have been fun to see everybody.
D.S. - Yes of course. We had some history there.
R.V.B. - What do you have going on these days? What are your current projects?
D.S. - I'm overseeing a couple of companies and I also manage a couple of bands. I have an umbrella company. I was the Chairman of Frontier - where I would hear bands like Yes and Whitesnake. I have moved on from there. I'm overseeing a company out of Australia which is now becoming a global organization. I'm using my experience to consult and give my experience to others.... like a tutor or mentor. I work with Patrick Moraz, Billy Sherwood and people who are friends.
R.V.B. - Congratulations on your achievements... and there are many. The music community is proud of you and keep up the good work.
D.S. - Thank you very much.
Interview conducted by Robert von Bernewitz
This interview may not be reproduced in any part or form without permission from this site.
Thanks to Anne Leighton
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